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Author Topic: President Digong Administration 2016-2022  (Read 76854 times)

Giri

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #240 on: July 13, 2016, 07:50:28 am »
At ngaun nakaabang hindi lang ang pilpinas(kasama mangingisda), pati ang buong mundo sa kanyang hakbang regarding West Philippine Sea.

"It has finally been decided that the West Philippines Sea (South China Sea) rightfully belongs to the Philippines and not to China, according to the decision of the United Nations (UN) Arbitral Tribunal."

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/140358/philippines-arbitration-decision-maritime-dispute-south-china-sea-arbitral-tribunal-unclos-itlos

chocoholic88

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #241 on: July 13, 2016, 09:10:57 am »
^mejo nalilito ako dito sa arbitration na ito. hope someone could give me insight. It was not mentioned anywhere kung sino ang may ari ng kahit anong island/shoal etc. ang sabi lang eh "sovereign rights". I looked it up and magkaiba pala ang sovereignty sa sovereign rights. Sa pagkakakaintindi ko ay yung sovereignty, yun yung may jusrsidiction and authority ka na.

Righ now, ang pagkakaintindi ko eh we have sovereignty over our territorial waters but we only have sovereign rights over the areas within the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).  Viniolate daw ng China ang PH's sovereign rights by: (a) interfering with Philippine fishing and petroleum exploration, (b) constructing artificial islands and (c) failing to prevent Chinese fishermen from fishing in the zone,”

So ibig sabihin di pa rin matatawag na sa sa atin ang West Philippine Sea/South China Sea?

Vans

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #242 on: July 13, 2016, 11:54:34 am »
Mali yung notion na pag aari ng Pilipinas ang West Phil Sea. as mentioned by chocholic88, sovereign rights lang yung EEZ. 

EDITED: oops sorry mali term na ginamit ko, dapat sovereign rights not sovereignty rights.

@chocoholic88, Check Sass Sasot's FB, https://www.facebook.com/sassrogandosasot?fref=nf&pnref=story
dami syang post tungkol sa issue na to.


At trending din si Duterte ngayon sa Reddit regarding the rising body count of illegal drug users/traders being killed.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 01:51:23 pm by Vans »

dismembered

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #243 on: July 13, 2016, 12:23:57 pm »
^ Madami talagang hater sa reddit. No wonder. You can see the biases there.

twinxz

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #244 on: July 13, 2016, 01:08:35 pm »
^^di ma-open yung site. :(

Giri

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #245 on: July 13, 2016, 01:16:10 pm »
Mali yung notion na pag aari ng Pilipinas ang West Phil Sea. as mentioned by chocholic88, sovereignty rights lang yung EEZ. 

@chocoholic88, Check Sass Sasot's FB, https://www.facebook.com/sassrogandosasot?fref=nf&pnref=story
dami syang post tungkol sa issue na to.


At trending din si Duterte ngayon sa Reddit regarding the rising body count of illegal drug users/traders being killed.

Hindi ko pa nabasa iyung link.

The tribunal found that China had violated the Philippines’ sovereign rights in its exclusive economic zone by (a) interfering with Philippine fishing and petroleum exploration, (b) constructing artificial islands and (c) failing to prevent Chinese fishermen from fishing in the zone.

Bawal ba mangisda ang Chinese fishermen sa EEZ ng Pinas?

springblossom

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #246 on: July 13, 2016, 01:59:16 pm »
^i think sis bawal mangisda kahit sinong foreign fishermen within our exclusive economic zone. unless, may approval sa government ng pilipinas. but no country can have exclusive ownership of the south china sea. bully lang talaga tong china at nagpabaya din kasi tayo on our part. now, i dont think china will easily give up on their  claims after everything they have done in the area.

nag-iisip din ako anong gagawin ni duterte. going to war can never be an option for us, kahit pa magiging allies natin ang us at japan, etc. our countrymen will not be able to survive. and besides, it's hard trusting the us. war sa middle east na pinakialaman nila has just gotten worst. magiging battleground lang ang pilipinas then what's next for us?

i am actually praying for a miracle na sana magkaroon ng hiya ang china at magkusa na silang ibigay sa atin yung territories within our exclusive economic zone. ang laki na ng bansa nila. matuto naman sana silang makuntento.





chocoholic88

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #247 on: July 13, 2016, 02:33:13 pm »
I got the posts below from Sass' fb page:


SO WHAT?

Some people are celebrating the decision because it said that China violated UNCLOS with its large scale land reclamation and construction of artificial islands. Okay, so what? What should China do now? Un-reclaim and deconstruct the artificial islands OR give them to the Philippines? NO.

The decision simply said that there was a violation but it didn't say what needs to be done because of that. The decision didn't even say that China must leave the area, it only said it shouldn't stop our fishermen from their activities and interfere with Philippine petroleum exploration at Reed Bank (a.k.a. Pangilinan's Philex Mining exploration at Reed Bank). So who really won? PANGILINAN


====

POLL:
WHAT TO DO WITH REED BANK?

The arbitration court just declared that the Philippines has sovereign rights over the Reed Bank. In practical terms, that means the Philippines has an exclusive right in exploring and exploiting its oil.

Now, since the Philippine government has no capability to do it, it needs another party. Currently, it's Pangilinan's Philex Mining company that has the concession. CORRECTION: the one that got the concession was Forum Energy, which is based in London, and Philex Mining has 64.45% in it. That means that this decision is good for them. But what's more beneficial to the Filipino people:

1. Let Pangilinan's Philex Mining Company continue and then just let them pay taxes and perhaps pay some royalty.

OR

2. Philippine government enter directly into agreement with China. Similar to the 1958 Bahrain-Saudi Arabia Boundary Agreement: Saudi Arabia exploits the oil resources and grants Bahrain ONE HALF OF THE NET REVENUES. The Philippine government can then invest this on the needs of our people.

To Vote:
Haha emoticon for 1
Heart emoticon for 2

Vans

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #248 on: July 13, 2016, 02:48:33 pm »
@Giri, sorry maling term nagamit ko. Sovereign rights pala. Gusto kong mabasa yung decision kaso 500 pages daw. Goodluck naman

ang pagkakaintindi ko sa sovereign rights sa EEZ ay yung coastal state lang ang pwedeng mag explore at exploit ng resources sa area na yun pero wala silang full control kaya pwedeng labas pasok ibang bansa. Pwedeng lumabas pasok China dun pero di sila pwede mangisda o mag explore ng oil.
Pero may nabanggit si Sass regarding sa international law, na hindi mo pwedeng pagbawalan ang ibang bansa na mangisda kahit sa territorial sea mo kung dati na talaga silang nangingisda dun.

Kaya parang nalito naman ako. So hindi pala blanket rule yung exclusivity ng sovereign rights over EEZ ? Depende parin kung anong lugar ang pinagtatalunan.

@dismembered, true at kadalasan misleading yung articles na ginagamit na source.

@twinxz, kung di gumana yung link, search mo na lang Sass Rogando Sasot
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 04:07:14 pm by Vans »

springblossom

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #249 on: July 13, 2016, 03:15:07 pm »
regarding the poll, i would definitely go for no. 2 - to go into direct negotiation with china.

personally, i believe this is the best option for the Philippines today, assuming China is open for direct negotiation.

cutemama

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #250 on: July 13, 2016, 04:06:27 pm »
Sakit sa ulo ng issue about sa China. masyadong bully talaga sila and wala silang paki-alam.

wag naman sana umabot sa war kasi maraming tao ang kawawa, madadamay. magiging magulo lang ang Pinas at hindi pa tayo handa.

natatawa ko sa mga comments sa FB na boycott daw yung mga 'made in china'..
wag na daw kumain sa mga chinese restaurants, wag na na pumuntasa Binondo, wag na kumain ng Hopia, siomai, noodles,. wag na bumili sa CDR-king.. hahah tapos may sumagot, "O itapon niyo na mga cellphone niyo.' la lang sharing. natawa lang kasi ko ng bongga. wala na ata tayo magagamit kasi halos lahat ngayon made in china.

yelle

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #251 on: July 13, 2016, 04:57:34 pm »
Grabe mga pangyayari ngayon mga sis ano? Sobrang na overwhelm ako sa mga pangyayari. First nandyan yung war against drugs na ngayon lang ako namulat na unti unti na pala tayong nagiging narco-country. Biruin mo and daming government officials ang damay at itong sa west phil sea naman.

^^same here I'd rather choose option 2. At ito din yata ang gusto ng Duterte admin na mangyari kasi alam natin na malabo mag concede ang china and we can't go war with them kasi talo talaga tayo. Yung ibang pinoy sa fb ang tatapang parang ng hahamon pa ng gyera. Hello mauna kayo dun!

Sabi ni sec. Martin Andanar na kaabang abang daw talaga ang mangyayari ngayong linggo na to. Susunod na yata ang FOI so magsisimula ng ang war against corruption naman. Gosh akala ko pagkatapos ng election eh matatahimik na buhay ko.lol


chocoholic88

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #252 on: July 13, 2016, 05:34:09 pm »
Pati pala Yung term na West Philippine Sea, nag originate Lang mula Sa executive order ni PNoy na lahat ng govt agencies yan Ang gamitin. Pero mukhang di naman soya internationally recognized. Maski Sa arbitration wala namang nabanggit na west Philippine Sea. It's still South China Sea.

simplepink

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #253 on: July 13, 2016, 05:40:26 pm »
Sana after 2022, mare-elect si tatay Digong.

twinxz

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #254 on: July 13, 2016, 06:18:58 pm »
2. Philippine government enter directly into agreement with China. Similar to the 1958 Bahrain-Saudi Arabia Boundary Agreement: Saudi Arabia exploits the oil resources and grants Bahrain ONE HALF OF THE NET REVENUES. The Philippine government can then invest this on the needs of our people.

I'd go for this since andun na yung structure nila. Malamang sa malamang di na yan aalis. So eto pala yung move ni Digong kaya he wanted to enter into a direct agreement with China.

springblossom

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #255 on: July 13, 2016, 10:03:21 pm »
some people argued that by directly negotiating with china, we would be giving up what is legally ours. but reading more about this dispute, i realized the sovereignty over south china sea is not as simple as how i knew it to be. i think we would gain more if we opt for direct talks with china and if things become worse and we have to go to war, we'll bear the greatest loss which will take many years for us to recover from, if we recover at all.

anyways, i got this from sass rogando sasot's fb page too.

MGA KATANUNGAN TUNGKOL SA PHILIPPINES VS. CHINA ARBITRATION CASE

1. ANO ANG SOVEREIGNTY?

Ang ibig sabihin ng sovereignty ay full and absolute control and authority within a territory.

Ang territory ng isang bansa ay nagtatapos sa kanyang territorial waters, 12 nautical miles mula sa kanyang baseline. Pati ang airspace, bed at subsoil ng territorial waters ay kasama rin sa territory ng isang bansa. Sa lahat ng iyan may sovereignty ang isang bansa. (Kung may overseas territory ka, obviously may sovereignty ka rin doon).

And in international relations, you can only have sovereignty kung i-recognize yan ng ibang bansa. Hindi ibig sabihin na sinabi mong may sovereignty ka, may sovereignty ka na.

2. MAY SOVEREIGNTY BA TAYO SA ATING EEZ?

Ang EEZ ay 200 NM from the baseline. Ayon sa international law, ang parte lang ng EEZ na may sovereignty tayo ay ang 12NM na territorial waters. Pagkatapos ng 12 NM na yan, ang mayroon lang tayo ay sovereign rights at limited jurisdiction.

3. ANO ANG SOVEREIGN RIGHTS?

Ang sovereign rights ay partial at economic in nature. Ito po ay karapatan ng isang bansa na i-explore, i-exploit, i-conserve, at i-manage ang living and non-living natural resources sa loob ng kanyang EEZ.

Mayroon din tayong sovereign rights para sa economic exploitation at exploration ng EEZ para sa mga activities na katulad ng energy production from the water, currents, at wind.

4. ANO ANG LIMITED JURISDICTION?

Ang jurisdiction ay ang kapangyarihan ng isang bansa na ipatupad ang kaniyang batas. 

Ang jurisdiction po ng isang bansa sa kanyang EEZ ay LIMITADO lamang sa mga aspetong ito:

- pag-tayo at paggamit ng mga artificial islands, installations, and structures
- marine scientific research
- protection and conservation and preservation of the marine environment

5. ANO ANG SAKOP NG ATING EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS SA ATING EEZ AND CAN WE SHARE?

Ang mga non-living resources lang po katulad ng langis.

Nasa atin naman iyon kung i-share natin. Hindi po labag sa sovereign rights ang pag-share ng resources. Hindi rin labag sa konsepto ng sovereign rights kung ayaw natin. Kung maganda naman kasi ang deal why not. Pero hindi natin malalaman kung maganda ang deal kung hindi tayo makikipag-usap.

6. EH SA MGA LIVING RESOURCES PO KATULAD NG ISDA?

Ito po ay kumplikadong usapin.

a) Ang sabi po sa UNCLOS, dapat i-determine ng isang coastal State, katulad ng Pilipinas, ang kanyang “capacity to harvest the living resources” na nasa kanyang EEZ. Kung walang capacity ang isang State na i-harvest ang “entire allowable catch” dapat ay bigyan niya ng access ang ibang bansa sa “surplus" na ito.

b) Ang highly migratory po na mga isda dapat ay makipag-coordinate sa ibang bansa para sa conservation at optimum utilisation nito, both sa loob at labas ng EEZ.

c) May karapatan din ang mga landlocked States na i-exploit ang surplus ng living resources sa ating EEZ

d) Traditional fishing grounds.

Although there’s nothing in UNCLOS that compels us to respect the traditional fishing activities of other States in our waters, the international practice is to respect traditional fishing activities (sharing po ang trend).

Halimbawa:
- Ang India at Sri Lanka ni-recognize nila ang traditional fishing rights ng kanilang mga mangingisda sa Palk Bay (1974)

- Ang Japan, kahit nag-establish siya ng 200NM fishery zone, ni-recognize pa rin niya ang traditional fishing rights ng mga mangingisda na galing sa China at South Korea kahit sa fishery zone na iyan (1978)

- Sa 1998 Eritrea vs. Yemen Arbitration Case sinabi ng Tribunal na even “sovereignty is not inimical to, but rather entails, the perpetuation of the traditional fishing regime in the region.” At dahil dyaan, kahit na ang sovereignty ng mga isla ay ibinigay sa Yemen, sinabi ng Tribunal na dapat i-ensure niya ang “traditional fishing regime of free access and enjoyment for the fishermen of both Eritrea and Yemen" and they  "shall be preserved for the benefit of the lives and the livelihoods of this poor and industrious order of men.”

- sa decision ng Tribunal, the Scarborough Shoal is declared  as traditional fishing grounds of both Filipinos and Chinese fishermen. At kahit one day mapatunayan na ang Pilipinas ay may sovereignty sa Scarborough Shoal, hindi pwede paalisin ang mga Chinese fishermen. At syempre hindi rin pwedeng gambalain ng mga Chinese ang pangingisda ng mga Pilipino

Ang buong South China Sea actually ay traditional fishing grounds ng LAHAT ng mangingisda ng lahat ng bansa na nakapalibot dito.

So, it’s either maging swapang tayo or makipag-kasunduan tayo sa lahat ng bansa na i-respeto ang ating common tradition with them.

Isa pa, the ecological crisis in the South China Sea (dwindling fish stocks o ang pagbaba ng stocks ng mga isda) URGENTLY requires na makipag-cooperate tayo whether we like it or not. Ang exploitation kasi ng mga isda sa dagat ay  economically managed, the new thinking is ecosystem-based fisheries management, and that requires multilateral efforts kasi wala namang kinikilalang EEZ or territory ang kalikasan.

7. MAPAPAALIS BA NATIN ANG CHINA SA ATING EEZ?

Hindi. Walang sinabi ang Arbitral Tribunal na dapat paalisin ang China. Ang sinabi lang ng Tribunal ay hindi nila pwedeng gambalain ang ating mga mangingisda at ang oil exploration sa Reed Bank na ginagawa ng kumpanya ni Manny Pangilinan.

8. ANONG MANGYAYARI SA MGA ARTIFICIAL ISLANDS NG CHINA NA NASA ATING EEZ?

Although sinabi ng Tribunal na violation ito sa UNCLOS, walang sinabi ang Tribunal kung anong dapat gawin.

Hindi rin sinabi ng Tribunal na dapat lisanin iyon ng China at ibigay sa Pilipinas. Wala rin naman kasing nakalagay sa UNCLOS kung anong dapat gawin sa mga naitayo na.

Furthermore, UNCLOS only said na ang mga bansa ay may jurisdiction about establishments of artificial islands within their EEZ. Hindi po ibig sabihin nito eh yung mga naitayong artificial islands, structures, etc ay ikaw ang may ownership. Ikaw lang ang binigyan ng UNCLOS ng karapatang mag-regulate. Ngayon kung naviolate yang karapatan mo, it doesn't mean you will have ownership over those islands. Walang ganon.

9. PAPAANO PO NATIN SILA MAPAPALIS SA MGA ARTIFICIAL ISLANDS NA IYON?

Negotiate with them or launch a war with them. Pero one thing is for sure, kung ikaw ang nasa posisyon ng China lilisanin mo ba ang mga islang iyon at ibibigay sa Pilipinas?

10. SO GANOON NA LANG IYON?

May legitimate interest po ang China kung bakit nila itinayo ang mga islang iyon: security.

Although the establishment of those artificial islands is illegal, China has a legitimate reason why they need to have a strong foothold in the South China Sea. Legality and legitimacy are not the same in international relations.

Ang halos lahat ng trade na dumadaan sa South China Sea ay galing o papunta sa China. If you are going to study Chinese history, you'll understand the painful lessons China had to learn by not securing the flow of trade to and from its shores. China has experienced its most humiliating defeats from the Europeans through that sea. So hindi mo talaga mapapaalis ang China dyaan dahil their security would be at stake. If that trade gets obstructed, as Chinese history tells us, China’s economy will be in peril. And you don’t want a big country as China failing because it will cause negative repercussions in the entire world, and it will be much worse than the Global Financial Crisis.

If the Philippines can ensure China that it can guarantee security sa flow of trade to and from China, then by all means paalisin ninyo sila. If the Philippines has the capacity to secure that trade for China, paalisin ninyo ang China.

Even the United States secures the flow of maritime trade going to and coming from the US by deploying its navy and having naval outposts. China is simply doing what any country that has an economy with a global reach is doing.

Kaya nga napaka-unreasonable and illogical ng mga concerns about China violating freedom of navigation dahil most of the navigation going on in that sea are for trade to China. Why would they stop freedom of navigation, eh maritime trade is the artery of their economy??

Kahit ang Pilipinas ang nasa lugar ng China, the Philippines will do the same. So recognise the legitimate interests of China and see how the Philippines and China can work together in order for the Chinese interests to be not inimical to the legitimate interests of our country. And you will not know their legitimate interests and how we can reconcile our interests with them if you are not going to talk to them.

11. NAKU MASAMA TALAGA ANG INTENTION NG CHINA!

You can never know their intention if you are not going to talk to them. If you don't talk to them and assume na masama ang intention nila, all your action will be based on an illlusion.

Obviously, you can never fully know the intentions of another country even by talking to them. The solution to this problem is talking to them regularly. Not talking to them and not having a good relationship with them don't put you in a better position.

12. SO SA ATIN ANG SPRATLYS?

The Arbitral Tribunal didn’t say anything about that. Hwag kang ambisyosa.

13. SO ANONG MANGYAYARI SA SCARBOROUGH SHOAL?

Both Filipino and Chinese fishermen are allowed to operate there. The Arbitral Court didn’t award the Scarborough Shoal to the Philippines or to China because the Tribunal has no authority to determine issues of territorial sovereignty.

Pero kahit na one day mapatunayan na ang Pilipinas o ang China ay may sovereignty sa Scarborough Shoal, hindi nila pwedeng paalisin ang mga mangingisda ng isa't isa kasi nga traditional fishing ground ng kapwa nila mangingisda ang shoal.

That's why the decision said, mali ang China sa paggambala sa mga mangingisda natin, pero hindi nangangahulugan na mga Pilipinong mangingisda lamang ang pwedeng mangisda doon. Both Chinese and Filipino fishermen have the right to be there. In short, walang swapangan.

14. SO ANG SOUTH CHINA SEA AY WEST PHILIPPINE SEA?

Yan ang sabi ng propaganda ng Aquino Administration. The Arbitral Tribunal doesn’t refer to the sea as West Philippine Sea but as South China Sea.

15. SO ATIN ANG SOUTH CHINA SEA?

Walang sinabing ganyan ang Arbitration Court. Hwag ka nga.

16. MAKA-CHINA KA BA?

I’m not for China nor for the Philippines. I'm for international stability and realistic thinking. And I serve my country by being independent of it.

17. WHAT'S YOUR BACKGROUND AT MASYADO KANG NAGMAMARUNONG?

Graduate po ako ng Combined Major in World Politics and Global Justice, minor in International Development, magna cum laude, sa Leiden University College-The Hague. Some of my key courses are International Law, Jurisdiction, Transnational History, Sovereignty and Statehood, Peace and Conflict Psychology, Conflict Resolution and Settlement, Foreign Policy and Diplomacy at Multilateral Institutions (both I studied under a former NATO Secretary General).

I studied din po sa UCLA ng US Foreign Policy at Chinese International Relations. At "Global Poverty, Local Solutions" sa International Institute of Social Studies

Currently, I'm doing a master's in international relations, working on my thesis on the South China Sea conflict, dito pa rin po sa The Hague.

I have at least 10 years of international experience and worked with people at the international level, such as international NGOs, private international defence and consultancy firm (on chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear threats), and high-level diplomats.

So I just don't have the academic training on international relations, may practical experience din po ako.

yelle

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #256 on: July 13, 2016, 10:24:13 pm »
^ wow binasa ko talaga lahat sis at natauhan ako.lol

So ibig sabihin may sovereign rights lang tayo at hindi complete sovereignty yung tipong sabihin natin na sa atin talaga ang scarborough.

 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 10:21:43 am by yelle »

Vans

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #257 on: July 14, 2016, 04:40:26 am »
^yup mismo. Kaya di rin talaga victory to kung tutuusin kasi wala rin magawa UN at siguradong hindi basta bastang babanggain ng US ang China para sa kapakanan ng Pilipinas.
Sa tingin ko, ginawa ito para ipamukha sa buong mundo ang pinagagawa ng China (officially on record) at magkaron rin ng precedent.

chocoholic88

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #258 on: July 14, 2016, 06:13:51 am »
I'd go for this since andun na yung structure nila. Malamang sa malamang di na yan aalis. So eto pala yung move ni Digong kaya he wanted to enter into a direct agreement with China.

^ Yes sis at I remember eto din ang dahilan kung bakit galit na galit ang tao kay Duterte kasi kala nila maka-China sya. Ngayon ko lang din na realize na it makes sense

Vans

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Re: President Digong Administration 2016-2022
« Reply #259 on: July 14, 2016, 08:02:05 am »
So ang tanong, papayag pa rin ba ang China sa ganyang setup ngayon na parang napahiya sila sa mundo? Diba dati pa nila hinihikayat ng i-drop ng Pilipinas ang kaso.

 

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