BARF/ Raw feeding

[abuanddiego]

^balikan mo lang yung mga links sis, andun halos lahat ng info for newbies. the usual reason kaya nagwoworry ang newbies is because kulang sa info, and as raw feeders kailangan well-informed tayo with this kind of diet kasi magkakaron ng imbalance kung walang variety. i promise, masasagot lahat ng tanong mo at mawawala worries mo once mabasa mo mga links.

bakit ka hesitant with chicken sis? yan ang the best meat for starters. at first kailangan kasi ng more bones para may maghold sa poop, pag puro meat and organs (very rich ang organs kaya 5-10% lang sya ng diet) kasi magkakadiarrhea sila, you could read more about this sa latest links ko.

i don't recommend sawdust kasi by-product na lang sya ng ground meat, madalas puro pa sya fats, source of skin inflammation yan sa kanila. go for whole human-grade meats, nagiiba kasi ang composition ng meat once macut/grind sila. may link din akong napost about this, mas maganda kung backread ka, wag mo na pansinin usapan namin kahit yung mga links lang basahin mo kasi mas precise ang explanation nila dun from experts talaga.

[chirochan]

My dog died because of sawdust. Did all the necessary precaution ng sawdust pero grabe pala bacteria nyab

[abuanddiego]

^bacterial infection/salmonella ba ang cause sis? sawdust is a by-product na kasi, madalas wala ng pake sa paghandle yung mga tao sa meat section, ito yung nagcaucause ng salmonella and not the meat itself. We use to give sawdust years back pero niluluto, tapos tinigil na rin namin kasi nga hindi sya human grade.

remember that healthy dogs can tolerate bacteria, their gut has some forms of salmonella na kasi, but if hindi sanay sa raw meat, mawiwindang ang system nila. That's why pag nakaraw or homecooked, maganda kung human grade ang ibibigay, much better kung organic/free-range. alam nyo naman dito sa pinas, bagsak lagi sa sanitary practices

[minnie99]

So sorry to hear that sis... Did you give it raw?

Nakabili ako yesterday spring chicken from Monterey. Actually nung una akala ko isang chicken lang siya then a lady asked kung dalawa, the girl said yes kaya bumili din ako. pagdating sa bahay hindi pala! haha. what's the diff ba? Parang less buto based on my observation! lol.

[abuanddiego]

spring chicken yung younger chickens sis, malambot pa ang buto nila kaya mas madali manguya hehe. may nabasa rin ako na mas maganda raw ang younger chickens kasi the more na matanda eh mas marami na daw toxins yun sa body. alam ko bonus lang yung may 2 spring chickens in 1 packaging.

[minnie99]

ooohhh. same kaya yung bone content nya, kahit malambot? Hmm. Oo nga pansin ko parang super bilis nila nakain. I bought three and tig half sila so 500 grams (which is more than what I should be giving based on calculations pero okay lang, nauubos nila haha). Same price lang Monterey spring chicken and whole chicken.

sa SM di ko nakita, I was there last week pero wala! So liver na lang binili ko (for treats)

[abuanddiego]

^feeling ko same din sis mas maliit nga lang itong spring chicken. pero magreresearch ako about this, kasi hindi pa ganun kaplump ang katawan ng spring diba, unlike bigger ones na malaman talaga hehe.

sis ang half ng nakuha mo is 500grams? parang ang laki nya for a spring chicken? most na nakikita ko di umaabot sa 1 kilo haha! prepacked na ba yan? at same price sila ng whole ah, sa groceries kasi madalas mas mura ang kilo pag spring chicken, nasa 99 lang. ngayon nasa 122/kilo na, malalaking chicken na ang stocks nila. feeling ko okay na ang production ng poultry ngayon, the past few months kasi puro sila spring chicken eh.

[minnie99]

yes sis, spring chickens na nakuha ko ay around that weight, 1kg per chicken... nagtataka nga ako bat ganun. haha. or siguro the first one I got was more than 1kg, then inassume ko na lang na almost everything is around that weight since parang same size lang (by sight). prepacked na siya. kaya nga medyo weird din dahil same price. pero sa loob naman i know na different dahil sa bones, and mas tender yung spring chicken.

stop na ulit muna ako ngayon at magpapataba ako ng puppies. feel ko di maaachieve yung figure na gusto ng vet and trainer namin kapag hindi full raw or full kibble. sabi ng trainer (na vet din) payat daw puppies ko, pero sabi ng original vet namin okay naman daw. yung littermates kasi naman nila saksakan ng taba... hehe

so ayun, stop muna kami sa raw. siguro occasionally na lang. but I did notice na di ganun kadali bumaho, tapos mabagal na sila kumain ng kibble (they chew it na).

[abuanddiego]

^i've checked different groceries, at malalaki na nga chickens nila. yung iba umaabot ng 160, mas gusto ko yung nung maliliit kasi sakto samin. cut ko lang into two, solve na kami for 2 days, i buy around 4-6 chickens good na yun for 1 week. ngayon need to compute pa kung ilang days aabutin ng 1 whole chicken haha!

pag raw kasi, during the first few months talagang papayat sila. they will lose the body fat then magtatransform into muscles. naexperience ko to sa mga boys ko, ilang years akong sanay sa matabang dog (diego the bulldog) so nung pumapayat feeling ko pumanget sya. may mga angles din sya na feeling ko ang payat-payat nya but once lumayo sakin dun ko nakikita na mas fit and toned yung body nya. before kasi nagsasag yung skin pero ngayon firm sya, parang naggym lang  

since sanay tayo sa matatabang pups, natural na magworry pag pumapayat. but the good thing with raw is that hindi biglaan yung paglaki nila. pag kibbles kasi pataba sila ng pataba (due to carbs ito, excess carbs kasi are stored as fat) result is nabibigla yung bones sa body weight. with raw feeding, controlled ang growth spurt, very slim ang chance for bone problems. good news ito lalo sa large breeds kasi sila yung prone sa bone issues diba. problema lang talaga is yung mga tao, kasi di sila sanay makakita ng slim puppies, satin kasi the chubbier the better/healthier.

naexperience ko na rin yung masabihan ng parang pumapayat sila, kahit ako mismo nafeel ko yun hehe. pero dahil fan talaga ako ng raw feeding, di ko tinigil haha! paglipas naman ng ilang months, gumanda sila so transition period lang talaga yung payat/panget stage. before pro chubby dog din ako but now, gusto ko may muscles na, di na nga ako natutuwa pag chubby yung dog, unhealthy na sya para sakin. kailangan lang 100% ang faith with raw feeding (so kaya mong idisregard sinasabi ng iba haha!) but still nasa iyo pa rin ang final decision, i'm just sharing our experience para alam mong di ka nag-iisa

bisitahin mo sis yung raw feeding group sa fb, browse ka lang sa mga comments, dun ako namomotivate kasi alam kong may kakampi ako haha!

[minnie99]

Yun nga din nafeel ko sis, na magiging macho sila... pero di rin kaya ng budget ko for now kasi Christmas. Tsaka di ko rin masabi sa vet kasi baka pagalitan ako or something. Syempre I respect them pa rin, even though I believe in the raw diet, nirerespect ko na may "degree" (hehe) sila and ayaw ko makipag-argue sa kanila if ever.

Don't worry, magccomeback din kami sa raw diet. Actually di ko naman nafeel na mapayat sila. Kapag tinabi lang sa mga kapatid nila, saka sila pumapayat. Syempre ako kasi tinatantya ko lang yung food nila para saktong korte lang. Prob ko nga dati eh parang sobrang taba nila. Ngayon payat naman. Hahaha. Haaayyy. Di ko man lang natry ang pork sa kanila. Nawala sa isip ko.

[abuanddiego]

^ako rin i respect vets pero kung hindi na tama sinasabi nila, makikipag-argue or better yet, change vets kung kinakailangan i know na may degree sila but i still do my own research para macheck kung tama sinasabi nila. afterall di naman sila yung iiyak pag may nangyareng masama sa mga alaga ko sabi ko nga, they may be doctirs pero ako pa rin ang ina ng mga alaga ko and i should know them better than anyone else

madali naman malaman kung payat or mataba ang dogs, rib test lang katapat nyan. mahirap kasi kung hanggang tingin lang tayo di yan accurate, dapat makapa yung body nila para malaman kung payat ba or mataba. tsaka hindi kasi lahat ng dogs same ang body structure, some are leaner, yung iba eh on the chubby side. so mahirap talaga magcompare. ang sakin is as long as alam nating healthy ang mga alaga natin, no need to worry sa comments ng iba

Di bale, you still have plenty of time sis. balitaan mo na lang kami once magraw sila ulit.

[nudork]

I've been feeding my dogs barf for years now. No problems so far. My brother is a chef and my vet used to feed her dogs BARF so I have a good bunch of people to ask for advice. ( All I need now is a nutritionist and I complete a set )

What I learned is freezing the beef or whatever it is will kill salmonella .Its similar to why sashimi must be frozen before being served. Also I learned that I have to add certain carbs and veggies to maintain liver health. I check my dogs blood every few months to make sure I'm doing things right. 

For my large dogs it is about  half a kilo to a kilo of protein plus carbs and veggies ( diet varies depending on our training ) lots of activities = more food.

My smaller dog has about 1 1/2 plus his ratio of carbs.

I do use saw dust but I make sure to check it. I have found sometimes there are bits of plastic in it. But other than that my dogs have been great.

I also sometimes take the sawdust and turn them into cookies I can use for training. I don't cook very well but my dogs dont seem to mind. I bake them like they are cookies.

Hope this helps.

Cheers and may the "paws" be with you

Nudork

[abuanddiego]

^hi sis! can you share the connection between carbs and veggies to liver condition? how's their blood result, is the sgpt elevated?

[nudork]

Okay I'm just a dog geek. Not a vet.  But I'll do my best  I apologize for the geekery in advance.

Livers perform a great deal of things one of the primary functions of a liver is to prevent permanent damage .. which also makes it susceptible to injury due to its role in metabolizing , detoxifying and storing various toxic chemicals.  Since low potassium levels and decreased levels of B,C and K vitamins are usually associated with liver problems supplementing it with vegetables is an alternative. Besides if your dog's creatine levels are higher than normal , you have to lessen the protein intake to lower it.  Lowering it as much as one matchbox size piece of protein per week . So that only leaves vegetables to get their nutrition.


I add the vegetables as a preventive measure.

My dogs are 8 and 4 years old. So far so good. Two large breeds and one small breed.

I still say check with a vet familiar with BARF or a nutritionist willing to work with dogs.

I hope I answered your question.


Cheers and may the "paws" be with you

nudork

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[abuanddiego]

^Thanks for the explanation. No worries, I'm fine with technical terms, I've been researching about dog nutrition for some years now

I forgot that you're giving barf diet (raw meat with plant matters) I'm a pure raw meat feeder, I don't add any plant matter. I believe that dogs are carnivores. I used to give carbs, fruits and veggies but after finding out that dogs do not have enough digestive enzymes for plant matters, I stopped. Their only source of fruits and veggies now is their organic vitamins, easier to digest since it's already in liquid form.

The problem with raw feeding is that there are only few people who are knowledgeable about this kind of diet. Especially here in the Phils., most vets would condemn you if you tell them that you're giving meat to your dogs. They trust dogfood so much since the companies sponsor most of the vet researches, most clinics even sell them. So our main source of info are just from the net mainly raw feeding groups and holistic vets. Another issue is the battle between owners, there are raw feeders (pure meat no fruits veggies) and barf feeders (meat with plant matter), though both groups share the same idea there is still a big difference in their practices.

[nudork]

I started getting concerned when 30% of my dog friends were experiencing gastric problems of one type or the other.  I started realizing there is something wrong if food can stay on a shelf indefinitely. So I switched up my dog's diet.. and eventually mine as well.

It's great meeting someone who does their research !  It is hard finding people that are knowledgeable in BARF feeding. You almost have to be part nutritionist/part-vet to get what is going on.  I do believe dogs are primarily carnivores . I started with a pure protein diet. But one of my older dogs started developing really rancid breath.  I have two vets I consult with. One of them is anti-barf and the other pro-barf and both told me that older dogs may start having problems with such a high protein diet. So I switched up all the dogs to half protein and 1/4 rice 1/4 veggies.

Glad to have made your acquaintance! Dog geekery rules

Cheers!
Nudork

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[minnie99]

Hi Raw feeders!

My puppy (only one, di ko na-enroll yung isa since walang handler) and I go to basic obedience classes, and I really had trouble finding a high-value treat for him. Here's their ranking:

Cooked liver (so aromatic! Haha) > Chicken > Cheese > Banana > Commercial treats > Kibble
(see? My dogs are telling me something... Raw meat really is the best! Talo lang ng aromatic liver haha)

Eh since cooked liver is so messy to bring to class, and aside from that, mabilis magspoil (eww, I left one in the freezer for one week and it had green spots! Didn't smell bad, pero bakit ganun diba)... I resorted to chicken for our class... I also brought cheese, but he wouldn't follow commands with cheese, only chicken. :|

Since morning to (9AM class), I cannot feed him at 6AM (we are advised not to, para mas sumunod). Pero syempre nakakaawa since he's the noisy one when it comes to feeding time, so I had to give him a handful of kibbles. I'm thinking of giving him a drumstick before class, okay kaya yun? Problem ko kasi baka mag canon butt sa class, nakakahiya since basketball court siya ng isang village.

He doesn't poop in class when he has kibbles in the morning, pero since I know faster ang digestion ng raw, mas mabilis ba siya magppoop if I give him a drumstick at 6AM? Or okay naman to give kibbles 3 hours before class? Konti lang naman eh...

[abuanddiego]

eto ang nasa isip ko sis, kung hindi mo pa sya kabisado with raw, pwedeng magcanon butt during training dahil na rin sa: adjustment stage, changes in atmosphere, emotions during training, stress and other external factors. may mga dogs din kasing stress ang trigger ng loose stool (like my dogs) so sa tingin ko kahit anong type ng food pwedeng abutan sila ng call of nature once mabago ang surrounding.

what time ang last meal nya? iniisip ko baka pwede mong dagdagan ang dinner para hindi sya gutom na gutom sa morning, kesa pakainin mo sya before kayo umalis and magworry sa canon butt ganyan ginagawa ko pag may lakad kami, binubusog ko sila sa dinner tapos wala munang meal, kahit treats wala kasi lagi sila nagkakalat pag nasa labas kami. kahit ilang hours na yung last meal, napupupu pa rin sila, feeling ko naninibago or kabado sa byahe hehe. para lang mas mapadali ang buhay, wala na lang muna kakain pag may lakad hehe.

ganyan din pansin ko sa liver mabilis sya maging green, but i still give it, wala naman silang pake sa color and smell hehe. May nabasa ako sa raw feeding site na walang kaso kahit color green or freezer burnt na sila, safe pa rin daw to give. Just make sure na kilala nyong mabuti ang tyan ng mga alaga nyo bago ibigay

[nudork]

Dogs usually don't eat when under stress. I'm not saying that stress is a bad thing. ( sometimes the lack of stress or challenges does more damage )

Anyway I've encountered more than a few dogs that have a low food drive during training. So provided your dog doesn't have any problems health wise . This is something you can do so you can get the most of training with your teacher.

1) Go for a quick walk before class. 20-30 minutes or more , hopefully near the facility. Rest for 10 minutes before the class. If the dog is still stressed and not eating . Walk for an hour.
2) Chill at the facility an hour before class just to get your dog acclimatized to the area. No training just sitting and enjoying the ambiance.
3) Cut calories or skip the meal in the morning and or the meal the night before
4) Use chicken . Roast chicken no skin. No MSG.
5) Use the toaster oven or oven to make liver treats. Then freeze. It helps meke it less messy during training.


For me the walking works the best. If the dog is not eating then the dog just needs to get used to the place and get over its reservations. Have fun training!

Cheers
Nudork